Help

[SplishSplashCrash]

Ok So miss Brazen has sep anx in the crate and I was taking her to work with me and crating her in the car but we have had a few warm days and I have had to take her home due to th heat in the car.

Well........the problem with being crated at home is my upstairs neighbor hear's her barking and has complained. So my last option is to crate her in the garage which is where she is right now she is also drugged up on two melatonin.

Any other suggestions? Wendy training ideas? Lab paw medication ideas?

*I am crate training her, treating her for going in and remaing calm, not showing signs of stress, I also am using the treat and train to reward her in the crate for being quiet when I am not present. I am also crating her and Crash together for short times to help her relax.

*I ordered the DAP collar and it should arrive tomorrow.

*Someone told me lavender oil around her crate to calm her?

Yes, I know these are quick fixes but I realy want to keep her and she is going through a behavior mod program with me, I just need to buy some time!

Thanks!!!

[Labpaw]

Sometimes Benadryl (at 1 mg per pound of weight) will cause drowsiness (but you have to try it out first, as in some dogs, like people, it has the opposite effect :( or no effect at all). Rescue remedy (holistic) is also know to calm dogs, but I don't have a dose.

Obviously there are prescription drugs that will also do the trick, but then you have to worry about potential side effects. Clomicalm, which is prescription, is a long term, fairly safe medication that is specifically designed for this problem. It may help long term, but it is something you have to get from your veterinarian.

As for training, well, there are FAR more qualified people to help you there. ;)

Hope that helps a little.... :)

[renegade]

I'll post more later (just home from an agility trial and about to eat dinner),
but I assume that you're trying super tasty stuffed kongs and not feeding her before the confinement time to make her more into the kongs?

I would get an appt with a vet and immediately explore clomicalm/amitrypteline/etc asap - most of my sep anx clients have had significantly easier times implementing sep anx plans on drugs than off!

Yes try the dap, rescue remedy, etc as well...

More later

[SplishSplashCrash]

Wendy-
I didn't even think of not feeding her before going in the crate, Duh *forehead slap*!

Right now she is on melatonin and that seems to last for about 3-4 hours and keeps her very quiet and sleepy but as soon as it wears of she goes right back to barking. She has a stuffed kong, and 2 stuffed hollowed bones, a treat stick with kibble, a rawhide, and a bouncy bone with rawhide chips on it in her crate as we speak. Don't laugh, but I have gone as far as to place lavendar oil on the towel underneath her crate in hopes it will calm and relax her. I tried rescue remedy but it did not seem to work. Her DAP collar should be here today or tomorrow, I plan on using that more during the actual training process to aleve stress then in the actual crate.

I know as far as training goes I shouldn't be leaving her in the crate as long as I am, but I am running out of options. Crating her in the car was perfect becuase I could sneak up on her and see when she was calm and let her out, I could also vary the amount of time. Darn San Diego and it's darn warm winters :(


Labpaw-
Is clomicalm expensive? Do I have to go to a vet behaviorist or just a vet? She is not injuring herself in the crate will they still prescribe it? Have you heard of 5-HTP? I guess it is an herbal remedy used for depression and anxiety in humans and they have done a study or two on it's effects in dogs. A few trainers I know have used it and reccomend it, incluing James O'Heare (author and dog trainer).

References for 5-HTP:
*Birdsall, T. C. (1998). 5-Hydroxytryptophan: A Clinically-Effective Serotonin Precursor. Alternative Medical Review, 3(4), 271-280.
*http://www.animalhealthoptions.com/products.html#proquiet
*http://www.5-htp.net/depression.asp
*http://www.advance-health.com/5htp.html
*http://www.mineralconnection.com/5htp.htm
*http://www.biosynergy.com/5htp.htm
*http://exchange.healthwell.com/nutritionsciencenews/NSN_backs/feb_99/depression_s2.cfm
*http://depression.about.com/library/weekly/aa011199.htm
*http://www.nemsn.org/medical.htm
*http://www.5htp.com/

[renegade]

I hope labpaw chimes in, but if I remember right from my client's experiences (and my experience with my neurotic foster dog), amitryptilene is much cheaper than clomicalm. I believe that which drug is right for your dog depends on your dog. My neurotic foster dog who is now adopted is now on prozac and seems to be having fewer episodes of less intensity than when he was on amitryptlyne. I know several of my clients have gotten their prescriptions from their regular vets, but obviously you're going to have access to much more information and options if you go to a behaviorist. I believe UC Davis will do phone consults by the way.

Giving things more thoughts - does it help at all if you leave a radio or tv on? Some dogs do better in a wire crate others in a hard airline crate (i.e. needing to feel less confined vs more confined). You can recreate the airline crate thing by putting a blanket over it as well (unless brazen is going to pull the blanket inside and eat it!). I've had a few dogs that do surprisingly better baby gated or shut in a room vs a crate (takes a leap of faith that the room won't be destroyed).

As you know there's usually no "quick" answer to sep anx and it's going to take a long desensitization and counter conditioning plan, but it is possible you'll see a quick turn around especially since she's so new to your environment and now and then I've had cases where one little tweak to the routing makes the problem much more manageable.

Have you video taped her? It might be useful to see exactly what behaviors she's exhibiting (panting, chewing at the crate, barking, howling, drooling, etc) and how long it takes her to calm down? I've found it's helped a lot of my clients from many perspectives. Sometimes it's worse than they thought, or not as bad as they thought. Also, it's very helpful to have a baseline of how long they carry on so you can track progress. For example, I know my sister's dog would reliably stress out for 80-90 minutes before calming down for at least a few weeks of taping. Then she plugged in the DAP diffuser and the next day it was down to 40 minutes. She played with going back and forth on dap'ing or not and saw a predictable change in the time. Without the video, she wouldn't have known that the DAP was making a difference since all she heard was the freak out happening as she left.

Also, Make sure to buy a pie or bake cookies for your neighbors and include a note thanking them for their patience and letting them know you are working intensely on the problem and to please keep communicating with you!

Keep me posted on how you progress - I've worked several sep anx cases, but each one is different and I'm always interested in hearing what does and doesn't work for each one to keep improving my skills!

[renegade]

also, might be good to get in touch with a homeopathic vet and investigate more herbal anti-stress remedies. One of my dogs was being a major stress case the past 6 months (for him that is) and I worked with my vet who has been educating herself on herbs and we had him on a few things like st johns wort and a few other herbs I'm drawing a blank on right now. He's back to his normal self now and off the herbs - not sure if the herbs helped or if it was the fact that my dog who just finished cancer treatment perked up around the same time (we think zack's stress behaviors started around when Jasper developed cancer).

[renegade]

Also, wanted to remind you to remember how lucky Brazen is to have found her way to your home vs someone else's! She's got a person who is a professional trainer to help her through this!

Also, not that it's good for Brazen to go through this, but think how much better your training skills will be after you work through it :) I always forget to remember that when I'm working through a problem with my own dogs or a foster dog - it's so stressful in the moment and I go through all the depressing thoughts on how bad I am at behavior modifications, etc - then you come out the other side and realize how much you've learned and how much you helped the dog and it's all worth it :)

[SplishSplashCrash]

I called the rescue group and told them that it isn't working out and that they should start looking for a foster for her.

She ripped a toenail out and broke a tooth trying to escape. She bent 4 bars on the crate today trying to escape.

When I came home the melatonin had worn off and she was screming her head off. 10 mins after coming home I got another call from my neighbor. Though he was nice about it, he said he just can't stand it. He said she was barking for 2 hours straight and I belive it.
*DAP spray, DAP collar, DAP plug in, melatonin, 5-HTP, rescue remedy, lavender oil, treats, bouncy bone, stuffed kongs, stuffed bones, treat stick, canine lullabies, TV (animal planet), music, none of it has worked. She hops over baby gates and is destructive if not supervised.

So right now she is crated in my car becuase the sun has set and it is cool enough. But I have run out of options........

The only way this girl can be crated is if someone is in her line of sight at all times (who has the time?) or if she is tranquilized to the point of sleeping (that's not a life).

I feel bad, but you know what I fix dogs all day at work, I really do not want to come home everyday for the next year or so and try and fix her. Not to mention my neighbor isn't going to tolerate even a day more of her. Also, the amount of time I am going to put into her, shoot I might as wel get a puppy and start all over.

You know if Crash all of a sudden developed this issue I would do anything and everything, I would even move, but I haven't completley bonded with this girl yet and she has provided me with so much stress that I really don't want to put anymore into it. My life is stressful enough as it is.

So, sorry, for the long post, I just needed to talk it out, and thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaankyou for al the help.

I guess my malinois quest will have to continue.

[huklbre]

Wendy-
I didn't even think of not feeding her before going in the crate, Duh *forehead slap*!

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p205/huklbre/smileys/doh.gif

It looks like you have the right people working with you in here. Good luck!

[Stanley]

the amount of time I am going to put into her, shoot I might as wel get a puppy and start all over.

Stay with it girl you can do it, the end result is very rewarding. Have you considered E-collars and the various ways they can be used to help your dog? Used properly these collars are wonderful training and behavior tools.

[renegade]

Sarah,
Wow, what a tough decision, but I'm sure it's the right one for you. It's not going to do brazen any good to be in a home that isn't in a situation to help her through her anxieties - also, we all need to find the right dog for us and it sounds as if this isn't the case in this scenario.

Craig - I think the topic of e-collars is a really personal one. I know a lot of people use them successfully and support their use and have had the results they desired from them. Others (myself included) feel that taking a more positive result - while more time consuming is the best way to go for training all behaviors. I do feel fairly strongly that using an e-collar to deal with fear and anxieties is not a good idea. Brazen is acting the way she is because she is panic'ed and anxiety ridden - shocking a dog who is in a panic is punishing her for being afraid! That said - I know this is a very personal issue and I don't want to start an argument on this topic as I find that most people are pretty ingrained on pro or con on e-collars and I'm not going to change anyone's mind :D Just had to chime in with the opposite side of the training view.

[SplishSplashCrash]

Sarah,
Wow, what a tough decision, but I'm sure it's the right one for you. It's not going to do brazen any good to be in a home that isn't in a situation to help her through her anxieties - also, we all need to find the right dog for us and it sounds as if this isn't the case in this scenario.

Craig - I think the topic of e-collars is a really personal one. I know a lot of people use them successfully and support their use and have had the results they desired from them. Others (myself included) feel that taking a more positive result - while more time consuming is the best way to go for training all behaviors. I do feel fairly strongly that using an e-collar to deal with fear and anxieties is not a good idea. Brazen is acting the way she is because she is panic'ed and anxiety ridden - shocking a dog who is in a panic is punishing her for being afraid! That said - I know this is a very personal issue and I don't want to start an argument on this topic as I find that most people are pretty ingrained on pro or con on e-collars and I'm not going to change anyone's mind :D Just had to chime in with the opposite side of the training view.


I am not opposed to e-collars but would never use it for anxiety as in my opinion it will only make it worse.

www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

[Labpaw]

I am so sorry I didn't get on-line last night. Crazy holiday stuff....

Anyway.... just to answer some of the questions, although it sounds as though things may be headed in another direction (and just so you know, I can imagine what you must be going through considering giving her back. It can't be easy, and I am sure that you must be heartbroken about it. My thoughts are with you! :) ).

Clomicalm, the brand name, can be expensive. There is a fairly new generic version of it, but some vets (grrrrr) still charge the same amount, even though it doesn't cost them as much either. So... having said that, I have used amitryptilline as well. It works for lots of patients. And we also use it as an antihistamine as well (little FYI fact). I have some clients that have their dogs on Prozac and some on valium. These are all things that most veterinarians feel comfortable prescribing without having to go to a behavior specialist. I will have to look at the links you posted. I am interested in reading about it. It isn't ringing any bells with me, but then the only thing ringing in my head right now are the bells of the holiday season from the Salvation Army guy!! ;) The trick is having the time & patience to find the right medication for your pet (not necessarily in this case, just making a broad generalized statement). And sometimes, as it is in this case, the effects are not seen quick enough (usually takes 2-4 weeks for the full effect). < big sigh> It is frustrating. And short of sedation on a daily, but hopefully short term basis, medically that is all I can think of that will help. :(


I am sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I hope things work out for the best, whatever that may be.