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SplishSplashCrash
01-29-2008, 09:53 PM
This was just released:

AVSAB's position is that punishment1 (e.g. choke chains, pinch collars, and electronic collars) should not be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. This is due to the potential adverse effects which include but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people interacting with animals.2 AVSAB recommends that training should focus on reinforcing desired behaviors, removing the reinforcer for inappropriate behaviors, and addressing
the emotional state and environmental conditions driving the undesirable behavior. This approach promotes a better understanding of the pet's behavior and better awareness of how humans may have inadvertently contributed
to the development of the undesirable behavior. Punishment should only be used when the above approach has failed despite an adequate effort as part of a larger training or behavior modification program that incorporates
reinforcement of appropriate behaviors and works to change the underlying cause of the problem behavior. AVSAB recognizes that both positive reinforcement
and punishment require significant skill, effort, and awareness on the owner's part. Both must be applied as the animal is performing the target behavior or within one second of the behavior to be most effective. Additionally,
both work best when applied every time the behavior occurs so that the animal is not inadvertently rewarded for undesirable behavior during the modification process. If punishment is added to a modification plan, it should only be used if the owner has first demonstrated
reasonable ability and consistency at rewarding appropriate behaviors and removing the reward for bad behavior. If punishment is suggested as part of a complete behavior modification
plan, owners should not begin using it until they have ensured that the person helping them is able to articulate the major adverse effects of punishment, judge when these effects are occurring over the short term and long term, and can explain how they will reverse the adverse effects if they occur.1For the scientific definition of punishment refer to p. 2 of Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals2 Refer to Adverse Effects of Punishment on
p. 3 of Guidelines on the Use of Punishment for Dealing with Behavior Problems in Animals



Punishment, or the use of aversives, force, coercion, or physical corrections in order to change an animal's behavior (For actual scientific terminology, refer to p. xxx: Definition), is commonly used by the general pet owner and by many dog trainers. Some punishments are seemingly innocuous, such as squirting a cat with water when it jumps on a counter or shouting "no" when your pet misbehaves. Other punishments, such as jerking a choke chain or pinch collar to stop a dog from pulling, throwing a dog down on its back in an alpha roll when it nips, tightening a collar around a dog's neck and cutting off its air supply until it submits, or using an electronic collar to stop a dog from barking are more severe.

Punishment is frequently a first-line or an early-use tool by both the general public and traditional dog trainers. While punishment can be very effective in some specific contexts depending on the individual animal, it can be associated with many serious adverse effects. (Refer to p. xx: Adverse Effects of Punishment). These adverse effects can put the safety of the pet and the person administering the punishment at risk. Because of these safety risks, people recommending these techniques are taking a liability risk. Thus, just as anti-cancer drugs can be highly effective in treating specific diseases in individuals but can cause serious side-effects in those same individuals or when used inappropriately, punishment is fraught with difficulties.

The adverse effects of punishment and the difficulties in administering punishment effectively have been well documented,1 especially in the early 1960s when such experiments were still allowed. For instance, if the punishment is not strong enough, the animal may habituate or get used to it, so that the owner needs to escalate the intensity.2,3 On the other hand, when the punishment is more intense, it can cause physical injury. For instance, electronic anti-bark collars can cause burn marks on dogs. Choke chains can damage the trachea, increase intraocular pressure in dogs thus potentially worsening or contributing to glaucoma in susceptible breeds,4 cause sudden collapse from non-cardiogenic pulmonary edema (water in the lungs) due to temporary upper airway obstruction, and cause nerve damage. 5 The risk of damage is greater when the choke chain sits high on the dog's neck.

Even when punishment seems mild, in order to be effective it often must elicit a strong fear response, and in such cases, the fear response can generalize to things that sound or look similar to the punishment. Punishment has also been shown to elicit aggressive behavior in many species of animals.6 Thus, using punishment can put the person administering it or any person near the animal at risk of being bitten or attacked.

Punishment can suppress aggressive and fearful behavior when used effectively, but it may not change the underlying cause of the behavior. For instance, if the animal behaves aggressively due to fear, then the use of force to stop the fearful reactions will make the animal more fearful while at the same time suppressing or masking the outward signs of fear; (e.g., a threat display/growling). As a result, if the animal faces a situation where it is extremely fearful, it may suddenly act with heightened aggression and with fewer warning signs. In other words, it may now attack more aggressively or with no warning, making it much more dangerous.

Perhaps one of the most compelling reasons to use punishment sparingly is that punishment fails to address the fact that the bad behavior is occurring because it has somehow been reinforced—either intentionally or unintentionally. That is, owners tend to punish bad behaviors some of the time while inadvertently rewarding these same behaviors at other times. In this way, they accidentally set their pets up to receive punishment repeatedly by sometimes unintentionally rewarding the bad behavior, which is how the behavior was learned in the first place. This inconsistency is confusing to the animal and can cause frustration or anxiety. Punishment also fails to tell the animal what it should be performing instead. Without an alternative appropriate behavior the animal may have no option but to perform the undesired behavior. A more appropriate approach to problem solving is to determine what is reinforcing the undesirable behavior, remove that reward, and reinforce an alternate desirable behavior instead. For instance, dogs jump to greet people in order to get their attention. Owners usually provide attention by talking or yelling, pushing them down, or otherwise touching them. A better solution would be to remove attention by standing silently and completely still and then to immediately reward with attention or treats once the dogs sits. This learning-based approach leads to a better understanding of our pets and consequently to a better human-pet relationship.

The standard of care for veterinarians specializing in behavior is that punishment is not to be used as a first-line or early-use treatment for behavior problems. Consequently, the AVSAB urges that veterinarians in general practice follow suit. Additionally punishment should only be used when animal owners are made aware of the possible adverse effects. The Association recommends that owners working with trainers who use punishment as a form of behavior modification in animals choose only those trainers who, without prompting:

..[if !supportLists]-->1) ..[endif]-->Can and do articulate the most serious adverse effects associated with punishment

..[if !supportLists]-->2) ..[endif]-->Are capable of judging when these adverse effects are occurring over the short and/or long term

..[if !supportLists]-->3) ..[endif]-->Can explain how they would attempt to reverse any adverse effects if or when they occur.

References
Hutchinson RR. 1977. By-products of aversive control. In: W.K. Honig and J.E.R. Staddon (Eds.) Handbook of Operant Behavior (pp 415-431). Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall.
Azrin NH. 1960. Effects of punishment intensity during variable-interval reinforcement. J Exp Anal Behav 3: 123-142.
Azrin NH, Holz WC, Hake DR. 1963. Fixed-ratio punishment. J Exp Anal Behav 6: 141-148.
Pauli AM, Bentley E, Diehl, AK, Miller PE. 2006. Effects of the application of neck pressure by a collar or harness on intraocular pressure in dogs. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 42(3):207-211.
Drobatz KJ. Saunders HM, Pugh CR, Hendricks JC. 1995. Noncardiogenic pulmonary edema in dogs and cats: 26 cases (1987-1993). J Am Vet Med Assoc 206: 1732-1736.
Azrin NH, Rubin HB, Hutchinson RR. 1968 Biting attack by rats in response to aversive shock. J Exp Anal Behav 11: 633-639.

Further Reading
Burch M, Bailey J. 1999. How Dogs Learn. Howell Book House

Reid P. 2007. Learning in Dogs. In: Jensen P (Ed.) The Behavioural Biology of Dogs (pp 120-144). Cambridge, MA: CABI International.

..[if !supportLists]-->3. ..[endif]-->Yin SY. 2004. How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves. Neptune City. TFH Publications.

SplishSplashCrash
01-29-2008, 10:16 PM
Adverse Effects of Punishment
Punishment can be effective in specific cases, but it must be used carefully due to the difficulties of performing it properly compared to positive reinforcement and due to its potential adverse effects. The following is a description of the difficulties and adverse effects that one should be aware of when using punishment (aversives).

It's difficult to time punishment correctly: In order for the animal to understand what it is doing wrong, the punishment must be timed to occur: while the behavior is occurring, within 1 second, or at least before the next behavior occurs.
Punishment can strengthen the undesired behavior: In order for punishment to affect a lasting change, it should occur every time the undesirable behavior occurs. If the animal is not punished every time, then the times it is not being punished, it is actually receiving a reward. Additionally these rewards are on a variable rate of reinforcement (i.e. inconsistent punishment), which may actually strengthen the undesirable behavior. Variable rate of reinforcement is a powerful reinforcement schedule that is used to maintain behaviors trained with positive reinforcement the animals know the reward will occur eventually, but since they don't know which time the reward will come, they keep performing the behavior with the expectation of an eventual reward. Thus the animals become like gamblers playing the slot machine.


The intensity of the punishment must be high enough: For punishment to be effective, it must be strong enough the first time. If the intensity is not high enough, the animal may get used to it (habituate), so that the same intensity no longer works. Then, the owner must escalate the intensity in order for the punishment to be effective. No matter when it is administered, punishment may cause physical harm or fear when used at the required intensity for learning to occur


Punishment may cause physical harm when administered at high intensity: Many punishments can cause physical harm to the animal. Choke chains can damage the trachea, especially in the many dogs with collapsing tracheas or hypoplastic tracheas. They can also occasionally cause Horner's syndrome (damage to the nerve to the eye). Some dogs, especially brachycephalic breeds, have developed sudden life-threatening pulmonary edema, possibly due to the sudden upper airway obstruction leading to a rapid swing in intrathoracic pressure. And dogs prone to glaucoma may be more susceptible to the disorder since pressure by collars around the neck can increase intraocular pressure.


Regardless of the strength, punishment can cause some individuals to become extremely fearful, and this fear can generalize to other contexts: Some punishments may not cause physical harm and may not seem severe, but they can cause the animal to become fearful, and this fear may generalize to other contexts. For instance, some dogs on which the citronella or electronic collar are used with a preceding tone may react fearfully to alarm clocks, smoke detectors, or egg timers.


Punishment can facilitate or even cause aggressive behavior: Punishment has been shown to increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior in many species. Animals in which the punishment does not immediately suppress the behavior may escalate in their efforts to avoid the punishment to the point where they become aggressive. Those who already show aggressive behavior may exhibit more intense and injurious aggressive behaviors.

Punishment can suppress behaviors, including those behaviors that warn that a bite may occur: When used effectively, punishment can suppress the behavior of fearful or aggressive animals, but it may not change the association underlying the behavior. Thus, it may not address the underlying problem. For instance, if the animal is aggressive due to fear, then the use of force to stop the fearful reactions will make the dog more fearful while at the same time suppressing or masking the outward signs of fear. Once it can no longer suppress its fear, the animal may suddenly act with heightened aggression and with fewer warning signs of impending aggression. In other words, it may now attack with no warning.

Punishment can lead to a bad association: Regardless of the strength of the punishment, punishment can cause animals to develop a negative association with the person implementing it or the environment in which the punishment is used. For instance, when punishment is used for training dogs to come when called, the dogs may learn to come at a trot or walk (or cower while approaching) rather than returning to the owners at a fast run as if they enjoy returning to their owners. Or when punishment is used during obedience competition training or agility training for competitions, dogs may perform the exercises with lack of enthusiasm. This negative association is particularly clear when the dog immediately becomes energetic once the exercise is over and it is allowed to play. Pets are not the only ones who can develop a negative association from this process. Owners may develop a negative association, too. When owners use punishment, they are often angry, thus the expression of force is reinforcing to them because it temporarily decreases their anger. They may develop a habit of frequently becoming angry with their pet because it "misbehaves" in spite of their punishment. This may damage the bond with their pet.


Punishment does not teach more appropriate behaviors: One of the most important problems with punishment is that it does not address the fact that the undesirable behavior occurs because it has been reinforced— either intentionally or unintentionally. The owner may punish the bad behavior some of the time, while inadvertently reinforcing the bad behavior at other times. From the dog's view, the owner is inconsistent and unpredictably forceful or coercive. These characteristics can hinder the pet/human bond. A more appropriate approach to problem solving is to focus on reinforcing a more appropriate behavior. Owners should determine what's reinforcing the undesirable behavior, remove that reinforcement, and reinforce an alternate appropriate behavior instead. This leads to a better understanding of why animals behave as they do and leads to a better relationship with the animal.

****I am not starting a debate on punishment. Just sharing intelligent research and information from a respectable and professional organization.****

Enjoy.

renegade
01-30-2008, 12:11 AM
If you prefer pretty pdf files - the info is at:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/avsab%20postion%20s%8Ant210.15.07-1.pdf
I've started to include this article in my beginning class orientation manuals. Always good to have info from vets on behavior to help clients when they talk to their vets who might not have had behavior training since vet school xxxx years ago.

Sassy Girl
01-30-2008, 12:03 PM
Great post!!!!

ssejrnv
01-31-2008, 05:43 PM
Very good information.
I do have a question though and have been thinking about it a lot. Was reminded once again this past weekend how loud and obnoixous my dogs can be. Please NOTE this is not directed at the person who asked me to move but it did get me thinking. I have done everything in my power to get my dogs not to bark. Unfortunatley, I travel to most events by myself and I compete with multiple dogs in each wave. I believe in positive reforcement training and believe me I have worked the steps still with no results. At my wits end, I purchased bark collars....they were 100% effective. In just a few weeks my dogs stood quietly while I worked other dogs not only on the dock but at flyball practice as well. I thought I had found the answer. Unfortunately, occational on of my dogs will forget they have the collar and in their excitement bark which produces a stimulation from the collar. NOW, just so everybody knows I have stimulated the collar on the highest level on several parts of my body to get a good idea of what it feels like. With that being said, again not all the time but once in awhile one of my dogs screams with the correction. It was after one incident that I received a lot of negative feedback about the collar. No one ever said anything to me directly it was always so and so thinks those collars are cruel. Or those collars are inhumane and shouldn't be used at these event. In defference to people's feeling I stop using these collar however now I am getting feedback that people wish I would do more to keep them quiet.
The reason I am posting this to the board is I would like some honest feedback to what people think of me or other's using E-collars or Bark collars at the event.
Thanks in advance
JJ

renegade
01-31-2008, 07:59 PM
My opinion is that this is a personal decision and while I will never use shock collars on my dogs, I don't judge people who do choose to. I do think it's important to understand the pros and cons of punishment (which I know you do). I also feel that they should be used as a training aide vs a training shortcut. I personally don't have a problem with you using them if you feel that's the best thing for you and your dogs in that situation.

PJ Meyer
01-31-2008, 09:47 PM
Could we pick a more controversial subject? I train dogs at both ends of the sporting dog spectrum, from bird retrieval and Splash Dogs with Chief to bear hunting with my Black and Tan Coonhounds. Through both disciplines I have found E collars very effective. I use Dogtra Collars, they are unique in that besides momentary and continuous stimulation they have a pager feature that vibrates like your cell phone or old style numeric pager. I could fry Chief and he would continue misbehaving. Buzz him with the non-shocking feature and instant compliance. I push my coonhounds to the absolute limit while hunting. I literally trust them with my life when faced with three hundred pounds of angry black bear on the ground ten to fifteen feet away. Harnessing their natural hunting instincts walks a fine line. Dogs fighting dogs in the presence of an angry bear usually results in dead dogs. E collars are indespensible in these situations. Both these scenarios represent the extremes of sport dog handling but personally I've seen dogs on the dock that have more control over their owners than they have over them and week or two of e collar training will get them to sit and stay. I hope this stimulates some interesting debate. Go check out the Dock Dogs thread on the rule change involving the new Semi-Pro class and you will see the worst that dog jumping has to offer . Pete and Chief

rowdygatorman
02-01-2008, 01:04 PM
I will put any e collar on my neck to show its not that bad.

BUT the handler needs the know how to use it. thats the realy tranning

SplishSplashCrash
02-01-2008, 02:35 PM
http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

http://crashinggoodtime.com/shockcollar2.html

.....you can choose to ignore it but can't argue with it.

-my 2 cents

tucker
02-01-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm new here, but I'll throw this in the mix. Anyone who says that e collars are only a form of punishment, doesn't know that much about the e collar. I would love for you to check out the web site, sitmeanssit.com Look at some of the video and see the amazing things being done with the e collar. Also, one needs to be carefull not to mistake punishment and disipline. Some seem confuse the two concepts, and interchange the words. There is a BIG difference between using certain techniques as a form of disipline, and using punishment. Anyway. thats all I got for now

Ken

MickeyD'sMom
02-01-2008, 04:27 PM
I want this guy to train MickeyD...watch the clip
http://www.sitmeanssit.com/

Stanley
02-01-2008, 04:41 PM
This link http://www.sitmeanssit.com/?s=e-collar has many interesting articles and testimonials concerning the proper use of e-collars.

JJ, you received a great piece of advice from Wendy when she said, "the best thing for you and your dogs in that situation." I would only add one more suggestion; kindly thank the e-collar complainers for their negative feedback and continue with your choice of training technique.

SplishSplashCrash
02-01-2008, 05:00 PM
This link http://www.sitmeanssit.com/?s=e-collar has many interesting articles and testimonials concerning the proper use of e-collars.

JJ, you received a great piece of advice from Wendy when she said, "the best thing for you and your dogs in that situation." I would only add one more suggestion; kindly thank the e-collar complainers for their negative feedback and continue with your choice of training technique.

Who complained? Who was negative? I think everyone has just given their opinions. No one has said who is right or wrong here, just voicing what works for them.

Stanley
02-01-2008, 05:44 PM
It was after one incident that I received a lot of negative feedback about the collar. No one ever said anything to me directly it was always so and so thinks those collars are cruel. Or those collars are inhumane and shouldn't be used at these event. In defference to people's feeling I stop using these collar however now I am getting feedback that people wish I would do more to keep them quiet.
The reason I am posting this to the board is I would like some honest feedback to what people think of me or other's using E-collars or Bark collars at the event.
Thanks in advance
JJ

My comment was directed at JJ's post concerning her experiences using the e-collar in public places and not the opinions posted in this thread.

Pete mentioned e-collars are a very controversial subject, perhaps e-collars have a stronger effect on humans than the dogs!

theotherbowen
02-04-2008, 11:11 AM
JJ -

Do what you've got to do. It "IS" a personal decision and I see no problem with using the collars. You know what you're doing, and as long as it works for you and the kids GREAT! See Ya soon

SplishSplashCrash
02-05-2008, 10:54 AM
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf

Ms. Talladega
02-05-2008, 02:04 PM
JJ,

I agree, do what you need to do and what works best for you & your dogs.

I was one of the ones who were not up for being next to your love bugs last event. Your dogs are very devoted and focused on you and where you are at. It is actually quite sweet but not on the ears.

Whether it is your neighbor, family, Splash people etc...they are your animals and therefore your opinion on how to address is soley the only one that counts.

I personally agree with proper use of a e-collar. Dega will begin e-collar training based off the techiques I learned in the Tri-Tronics Retriever Training book by Jim & Phyllis Dobbs. I was quite surprised how I was expected to utlize the e-collar and can see how so many out there have abused it on their dogs.

When Dega is in life threatning areas during hunting, the e-collar will save her life. If there are people who don't care for the e-collars I believe they don't understand the bigger pitcure in correct manner in which they should be used.

Anyways, I think your dog's are crazy about you and that is all that really matters.
Sincerley,
Gianna

tucker
02-08-2008, 04:16 AM
JJ
I was the one who posted the sitmeanssit site. I would also encourage you to read both of the Ceasar Milan books. He has been criticized for some of his methods but holds true to his convictions. I rescue dogs from my local shelter and Ive seen many great dogs have to be "put down"(which is just a polite way of saying killed) just because they lacked proper discipline. Their owners loved them but the dogs became "too much to handle", soo they gave them up. People are passionate about dogs, but they(we) also believe that everyone else should think as we do. The main thing is that you want to fix the issues with your dog. Hold to your convictions, and remember the BEST training technique is the one that works best for you.

Ken

tucker
02-08-2008, 04:43 AM
Sorry I"m babbling but I would like to add, that what you and all the people in this forum do, is a craft. Yes it's a hobby but remember that like any good craftsman, you have to have several tools in your tool belt. I was never a big "Clicker" person, but I found that a modified version of it worked best for teaching my lab to "down". So guess what, I put that in my ole tool belt for future use. Have and keep a bunch of training methods at your disposal and you can use the one thats best for the situation at hand. And God Bless people like the Splash Dog people. It is clubs like this who give a person something to do with their dogs, making for a better "best friend".

Ken

Sassy Girl
02-08-2008, 10:39 AM
JJ - don't take barking complaints to heart. I get asked to move my dogs at every event, even by their Auntie Wendy and flyball, well my team asked me to move my dogs out of the canopy so I totally know how you feel. If you wish to use a bark collar - go ahead I'm behind you and it sounds like others are as well. Training methods are a dog owners personal choice.

ssejrnv
02-08-2008, 11:26 AM
Thanks all,
I do understand it is a personal choice and usually I just do what I think is best however in this case I didn't want people I care about upset or thinking my dogs were being hurt. The truth as many of you know is that I do many forms of training with my dogs and I understand fully the consequences of using a device like a bark collar. For me, having tried an array of training tools to fix this problem am without an option I totally like. However, what I need to ask myself is what is best for me and my dogs and thanks to those of you who are willing to let me decide.
JJ